47 Comments for Old Testament Church: Ekklesia, Qahal, Septuagint
Comment on Old Testament Church: Ekklesia, Qahal, Septuagint
Ecclesia in the 70
by Lewis1 - 12/29/21 2:52 PM
#1, I was taught in Bible school that the only proper way to translate the Bible is to do so from the original tongues, which the Septuagint is not. Perhaps you think its okay to prefer a translation to the original. #2, The vocabulary used in the Septuagint in almost every verse is quite different from what is used in Hebrew manuscripts. #3, The word "ecclesia" is never used in the Hebrew text, again because it was not written in Greek, therefore the word "ecclesia" or the English "church" is unknown in the Old Testament. #4, If you have a problem with Dispensational theology you should make your arguments known rather than just dismiss it as if it is a known heresy. I would be interested to read your rational argument against it. I have yet to read one that is persuasive. #5, The ministry of the Holy Spirit to the church in the New Testament is unlike anywhere else in Scripture, and makes the church distinct from Israel.
You say "The 'ekklesia' is not 'church'. There are two different words in the Greek for them. The 'ekklesia' is a form of government. The 'church' is a physical building." I'm not sure what you are aiming at here -- but, no, Church is NOT a Greek word found in the New Testament, because it is not Greek. Your argumnent makes no sense because your "facts" are not reality. And who told you that church is a physical building in the New Testament? Even in English, it didn't acquire that meaning (which has indeed caused a lot of misunderstandings) for centuries after the writing of New Testament, or perhaps I should say after the translation of the New Testament into English.
I want to correct a mistaken understanding in the comment by ted bruckner on 2019/8/17, for the sake of anyone reading this:
\"or as Augustine put it lighty to Jerome, the apostate who put it into the Bible he made for the Vatican\'s official Bible, the 405 A.D. Vulgate Bible, Augustine complaining of the yet-to-be-named \"Masoretic\" (Hebrew) text, wrote in a letter to Jerome: The Greek Old Testament is more faithful in it\'s renderings and more intelligible in it\'s sense.\"
The comment above may give an impression that Jerome insisted on the Hebrew while Augustine rejected it. Neither is the case. Jerome says in his correspondence with Augustine that he translated from the Hebrew in the hope that others could determine whether the Seventy had erred in translation or the Rabbis had mangled the Hebrew text, and he avoids giving an opinion favoring one or the other, claiming insufficient knowledgeability on the subject to pass judgment on the superiority or inferiority of the Hebrew. Augustine\'s response... more...
Applying the logic here
Qahal=Ekklesia = CHURCH
-assembly; congregation;
THEREFORE- There was a church in the wilderness
Way even before the 1st believers in Acts
Check out Stephen’s word just before he was gonna be stone in
ACTS 7:37
So much for Mr. Darby and Scoffields claims that no where in OT scripture was Israel referred to as the church. The NT then kills the dispensationalist claim that literal Israel has a different ending than the NT church. All are one in Christ. No there will not be a time when Israel will again use OT sacrifices and be acceptable to God. The only difference in the endings of literal Israel and the NT Israel which is the church or assembly of all Christians of all nations is hell vse heaven if they continue to refuse Jesus Christ. Abraham was accepted as the father of faith not his nationality. Thank you for this post!
What about Stephen’s word in Acts 7:38
Applying the logic here of Qahal- Ekklesia-congregation, assembly-church
So there was a church in the wilderness!!!!
I have always wondered about the origin of the term Church. As the age draws to a close, YHVH is revealing long hidden deceptions to those who seek the truth. To write such an article as above, it is impossible without the prompting and guidance of the Ruach Ha-Kodesh. All in All, the introduction of this Term church has done more harm to the congregation of God than any other translation "error." I put in quotes because I believe that it wasn't just an error; it had very sinister motives. This simple single word has spawned so much false teachings and doctrines that it's impossible to ignore the fact that it has almost achieved it's objectives; but it cannot because our saviour assured us that "I shall build my Ekklesia and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Matt 16:18.
I read the introduction of "CHURCH" as one of the tactics of the "lying in wait of the Jews" especially by those who claim to be Jews and are not.
Imagine this; this term church implies that Christ started this new movement/organization/congregation called CHURCH, This therefore introduced a dichotomy between Christians and Jews; a situation that has spawned even more false doctrines!!
Let us all pray that we may be delivered from the chains of Babylon and her false doctrines;
Perhaps, but it doesn't seem the writers of the New Testament had any problem with the substitution. The 3rd and 4th century 3 more than less complete Christian Bibles' Old Testament (which is the Greek Old Testament) also use the substitution words. As do the 1st century and 2nd century early Christian writers' works. The deception (which it does very much seem to be) was accepted tradition well entrenched in even ancienter times than those.
The Septuagint Jeremiah 20:9
Then I said, I will by no means name the name of the Lord
Masoretic Text Jeremiah 20:9
Then I said, I will not make mention of him
-------------------------------------------------------------
The Septuagint Esaias 33:21
for the name of the Lord is great to you: you shall have a place …
Masoretic Text Isaiah 33:21
But there the Glorious LORD will be to us a place
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The Septuagint Psalm 40:4,5
Blessed [is] the man whose hope is in the name of the Lord, ... more...
Yahshua Ha'Mashiach spoke Hebrew not greek so Yahshua said he will build His qahal .Ge_means Earth in the latin ans sus means Pig so the name Jesus is the earth pig But Yahshua is the name above every name and Christianity is a lie and it is tied to pagan roots . We were not called Christians this was a name given to us by the non believers we were Kingdom Believers who fellow Yahshua ha mashiach not christ the sun god or tammuz whatever you want to call him . that name and given to men by the Catholic Church who are very much into Sun God worship . Yahweh says we are His Kingdom sons and daughters his Qahal not anything greek the devil is a lie .
Very good truth telling. I have some knowlrdge to share with you as you are advanced and will appreciate this."Iesuos" is how OT Joshua's name is spelled in the Greek translation of the Seventy interpreters which was produced in the 3rd century B.C. by sanctioned faithful Israelite elders anticipating the Messiah. In reality, in Greek (which doesn't have the letter H) I before a vowel sounds like a Y. The Apostles actually wrote 'the memoirs' in Greek, regardless that the first memoir (Matthew) was first written in Hebrew / Chaldean / (Syrian). And they didn't find any problem in transliterating Yahshua's name into Greek or using Christ instead of Moshiach. There are over 500 variants of our Saviour and King's name in the whirled world and He is merciful and compassionate and humble and loving and understands that we are living in the realm of Ba'al, the author of confusion. Surely, He doesn't judge or expect His children / sheep to all be on the level of the few such as our selves who are avid in quest of... more...
Assembly
by Pastor G. Reckart - 11/01/12 9:29 AM
Jesus and the Apostles quoted from the LXX over 350 times. There is no proof they ever quoted from the Aramaic text. The couple of times attributed to the Babel Aramaic text, can be traced instead to the ancient Paleo Hebrew which the Aramaic may have gotten close to correct in translation. My point is, Jesus did not use the Chaldee Aramaic "Qahal" and neither did the Apostles. The Greek Ekklesia is what they used. The use of the word "church" to describe where the Ekklesia assembled and to describe the members as a collective group, is totaly acceptable. If it was not for the LXX we would call no assembly place a CHURCH. We would be calling our meeting places a synagogue. For this is what the Jews adapted "qahal" to be. I will stick to Jesus and the Apostles. I do not find any comfort in using Jewish words, meanings, or terms they never used.
Good knowledge you shared. thanks. though, i have throughly made an inventory and copied out all but the repetious and three-four word quotations and my count of direct quotations is 250. 350 for a number woulld be including references and indirect quotations to particular verses
RE:Assembly
by ted bruckner - 8/17/19 6:41 PM
for those who want a Septuagint, the rabbis are still fighting against it and we have only one English translation , maybe two, to speak of, the first English trans., Thompson's 1800 AD that doesn't have the Apocrypha; it was corrupted with MT in the 1950 edited reprint. The NETS trans. (A New English Translation of the Septuagint and the Other Greek Translations Traditionally Included Under that Title) is based on the
NRSV and all those other Gk. trans.s are all based on the MT: NETS is a fake. The translators group picture that's on the main-page of their website says a lot; NETS is free to download, (naturally, because they want people to continue ingesting the Masoretic falsifications and mutilations that discredit not only Christ, but God , Wisdom, man, and people in the Scripture) The Brenton trans. is THE SEPTUAGINT TO READ. the reprint by Hendrickson Co. is the one for those who only have 30 bucks to spend and don't want to have a 30 buck interlinear hardcover Sept. with strong's numbers) apostolic... more...
God bless you. It is all much clearer now. I thank God for your unbiased approach in this area. Our God is truly Amazing in how he deposits wisdom and knowledge in his WORD, and in the people who expounds on it.
You teach absolute truth on this site the Bible word "Ekklesia is a homonym word. Christ used the Word "Ekklesia" to trust the majority of His bride as an impaneled jury to declare true Doctrine (instructions from God) in their spiritual war against the Gates of Hell. The Gates of Hell cannot prevail against Her (not an it).The primary purpose of the "Called out" Ekklesia of Christ is to stop division caused by the gates of Hell (Mat.16:18). Thayer's lexicon pg 196 says the first or the primary purpose of Ekklesia is deliberation (Greek polemic or war like debate in disputed doctrine). This stops all false doctrine (instructions making the false claim to be from God). The entire "Called out" congregation becomes the impaneled Jury that votes to decide who is teaching Christ true source of doctrine and all agree to abide by the majority. The oath (covenant or New Testament) of first century Christians "We Stand Ekklesia, We Die Before We divide." Churches have divided into over forty thousand with thousand of opposing church doctrines (instructions all making the claim to be from God). It is impossible for the gates of hell to divide the true Ekklesia of Christ.
IN HIS IMAGE---AFTER HIS LIKENESS/Gen.1.26-28;9.1 , THE BORN AGAIN MAN/JN.1.12;3.3-8
by Inri kingdom amb.Elijahw/icuicn - 7/26/16 10:41 AM
The whole content contained in the substance of the body of God
/truth-Jesus Christ has yet to be revealed before man is able to
comprehend who/what God-in-him (male and female-'humankind')is.
Therefore, present day (july 2016) mankind (jews and non-jews)
need to keep their line of sight on what\'s to come (gen.-rev./mt.
5.17,18;2 cor.3.17;mt.17.11;1jn.5.7,8,kjv 1611) 'a work of God in
progress' as having to so with God the one-in-me 'his heavenly
messenger elijah-the elect lady-the other paraclete'---end time
prophecy.
Jealous' elijah with jealous' icuicn at jealous' jealousy
icuicn - intelligencescosmicuniversalintergalacticcommunication
snetwork/ufos-ets-other dimensions,aka, the perfected and risen Jesus
Christ\'s other sheep 'not' of your 'humankind' fold (jn.10.12).
Assembly "that" in your congregation of who/what be God's flock
(multitude---company)---'church'/mt.16.18's b u i l d i n g/2sam.
7.11;amos 9.11;zech.12.8;mic 4.5! (mt.19.28---in the regeneration)
This was very helpful - it helped me understand Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger's (Pope Benedict) book Called to Communion:Understanding the Church today, in which he touches on the meaning of ecclesia and qahal in the first section on origin and essence of the Church. But you go into greater depth on it here. Thanks and kudos!
Want a bible Robert heath 3412 central ave Ashland ky 41101
Incredible article
by Denise Foyn - 6/15/15 7:16 AM
Thank you for the hard work that you have put into this article. I have been studying this subject for a while and find this information very useful and throught provoking.
For the longest while I am trying to find the true meaning of the GREEK word church, and the informations i find are very confussing each one has a different interpretion of the Greek word that is translated church. Right now i am very confussed.
The assembly, congregation, ekklesia o kahal has always been the same one, Israel, for whom Yeshua, the Kinsman redeemer came and paid the price of the adulterous wife having taken unto Him the death penalty that Israel, His betrothed bride, should have received. When He died He set Israel free from the marriage law to remarry Him upon His resurrection at the acceptance of His sacrifice.
Honestly, I find this research pretty spot on. I have been doing a lot of research on the subject for a paper that I have in contemporary theology. I find the lack of the word church in the modern translations a little disturbing, but was relieved when I found that they do appear in the Septuagint.
I believe that the Septuagint is one of our greatest translation tools that we have of translating the Old Testament and finding the similarities of metaphors and analogies (being that the use of the same language makes it easier). Also, seeing as how those that translated the Hebrew Bible to Greek were closer in time and thus had a better understanding of the meanings, both literal and meant, of the words. Therefore, the LXX is an important translation tool, and one that should not be overlooked.
The word church does not appear very many times in the N. T. considering the length of the N.T.. However, we do know that Jesus established her(His future bride) when He called out the twelve. We know that a hugh church existed in Jerusalem and that Paul directly addressed the seven churches in Asia.Due to their persecution, many believers were scattered through out the land. Therefore, it is reasonable to believe that many more churches were established than we know about.
Qahal
by bruce - 8/26/12 6:07 AM
Something that always intrigued me is how close qahal is in sound as well as meaning to our English word 'To Call'.
I have not completed the reading of this material. However, I would like to read your commentary on the story of Esau and Jacob in Genesis chapter 25. Will you please send me this information? ASAP? Thanks.
The author of the article ?Finding the Church in the Old Testament:?
Remember, ekklesia is the same word that is translated as "church" in the New Testament. It is this same word that is used to translate the Hebrew word qahal, whose English translations are bold in the verses just provided. What we see is the same title given to believers from Genesis to Revelation. Above is only a small selection of passages from the Greek Old Testament known as the Septuagint. The Greek word is used many times over and often in direct relation to Israel. From beginning to end there is only one called-out assembly, they are known commonly as the church and to God as Israel.
Whereas the English word ?church? (the Lord?s assembly), which is derived from the Greek adjective ?kuriakoV? (the Lord?s), which is used in 1 Corinthians 11:20 in reference to ?the Lord?s supper? and in Revelation 1:10 in reference to ?the Lord?s day,?... more...
Jim, I think you are missing the point. Did you read the text on the link provided called What? Who is the Church? We are all aware that there can be evil assemblies but that is not what is being discussed here. John 20:16. In 20:1: Jesus saith unto her, "Mary". She turned herself, and saith unto him in Hebrew, "Rabboni" which means, Teacher (NAS). Mary symbolizes the body/assembly/Church. The passage here makes the point that the Church should be understood in Hebrew, or as the Hebrews understood it, may be a better way of putting it. understanding the depths of what a simple verse like verse 16 means can speak volumes in bringing the breached assembly together. I believe this is what is happening and proves that the time of the end are upon us.
47 Comments for Old Testament Church: Ekklesia, Qahal, Septuagint
Comment on Old Testament Church: Ekklesia, Qahal, Septuagint
Ecclesia in the 70
by Lewis1 - 12/29/21 2:52 PMLatest of 2 Replies: Post a Reply
RE: Ecclesia in the 70
by Grace - 11/22/23 4:41 PMRead 1 more reply
CONTRADICTIONS
by Anonymous - 7/01/12 7:07 AMLatest of 4 Replies: Post a Reply
Re:contradictions
by Coemgenus - 3/18/21 11:26 PMRead 3 more replies
Qahal-Ekklesia
by Ronnie G - 1/18/20 3:29 AMNo Replies Post a Reply
Church of the old testament
by Tony - 8/06/16 6:43 AMLatest of 2 Replies: Post a Reply
RE:Church of the old testament
by Ronnie G - 1/18/20 3:23 AMRead 1 more reply
Qahal Ekklesia Church
by David - 1/31/15 1:05 AMLatest of 2 Replies: Post a Reply
RE: Qahal Ekklesia Church
by Brother Ted - 8/17/19 11:08 PMRead 1 more reply
The original Language was Hebrew
by apostle Brendetta Campbell - 12/17/16 5:58 PM1 Reply: Post a Reply
RE: The original Language was Hebrew
by Anonymous - 8/17/19 9:12 PMAssembly
by Pastor G. Reckart - 11/01/12 9:29 AMLatest of 5 Replies: Post a Reply
RE:Assembly
by ted bruckner - 8/17/19 6:06 PMRE:Assembly
by ted bruckner - 8/17/19 6:41 PMRead 3 more replies
Church as seen in the Old Testament
by teresa's list - 11/04/18 7:49 AMNo Replies Post a Reply
Ekklesia
by Willard Wade - 5/29/15 12:41 PMLatest of 2 Replies: Post a Reply
RE: Ekklesia
by zel - 10/26/16 8:55 AMRead 1 more reply
IN HIS IMAGE---AFTER HIS LIKENESS/Gen.1.26-28;9.1 , THE BORN AGAIN MAN/JN.1.12;3.3-8
by Inri kingdom amb.Elijahw/icuicn - 7/26/16 10:41 AMNo Replies Post a Reply
Ecclesia
by Karen - 1/20/16 3:20 PM1 Reply: Post a Reply
RE: Ecclesia
by Anonymous - 7/25/16 9:49 PMIncredible article
by Denise Foyn - 6/15/15 7:16 AMNo Replies Post a Reply
Жырный Тролль
by Stroitelnica - 6/03/15 9:47 PMNo Replies Post a Reply
Ira Winchester
by irawinchie - 6/03/15 10:28 AMNo Replies Post a Reply
Interesting
by Anonymous - 9/24/12 4:43 PMLatest of 3 Replies: Post a Reply
RE:Interesting
by Anonymous - 1/12/15 11:22 PMRead 2 more replies
Assembly, congregation, ekklesia o kahal
by Anonymous - 7/17/13 8:28 AMNo Replies Post a Reply
The church
by Colton Plumley - 11/15/12 8:31 AM1 Reply: Post a Reply
RE:The church
by Bro. Wayne - 11/30/12 4:53 PMQahal
by bruce - 8/26/12 6:07 AMNo Replies Post a Reply
Jesus Direct Instructions..
by JAMES DANIEL HIATT - 1/31/11 10:27 AMNo Replies Post a Reply
Who is Israel?
by Anonymous - 7/22/05 6:32 AMLatest of 2 Replies: Post a Reply
RE: Who is Israel?
by Anonymous - 11/01/10 8:41 PMRead 1 more reply
The Word Ekklhsia
by Anonymous - 4/14/06 6:19 AM1 Reply: Post a Reply
Assembly
by G - 5/06/09 9:56 AM